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AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

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AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday
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Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2431Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

I just got up and saw that we had a new user in the moderation queue.

I accepted the user, but as some may be able to see, the post chatmaggot made fell behind a bunch of newer posts.

So just to make sure that everyone is aware of chatmaggot's post, I'm quoting it here:


chatmaggot wrote:
australopithecus wrote:Creationists seeking truth? I'll have to start funding into a swine runway.


During the discussion between AronRa and Bob on Bob's program AronRa denied that he showed a video clip of Ken Ham while he (AronRa) talked over the video (1st Foundational Falsehood of Creationism). Yet it is there for all to see around the four minute mark. Is AronRa's denial of what his own video shows being truthful?

In the actual debate thread AronRa states:

I must contest Bob on one other point in his first post here; the definition of faith. According to a consensus of every authoritative source, dictionaries, hymns, collective philosophers, sermons of theologians past and present, and even scripture (both eastern and Abrahamic) faith is juxtaposed to reason of evidence. Faith is an unsupported assertion of stoic conviction which is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. That is why I have to reject faith as inherently auto-deceptive.


AronRa states that Bob's definition of "faith" is contested by "even scripture". How can that be when Bob quoted scripture? Bob stated:

The Bible defines faith as the proper response to "the evidence of things not seen,"


This is a direct quote from scripture. Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


How can AronRa claim that Bob's definition is contested by scripture when Bob uses scripture's definition of faith?




Also, welcome to the forum, chatmaggot. :)
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Sat Feb 04, 2012 8:59 am
Gnug215ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 2431Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:31 pm

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

I would also like to make a small comment here.

I think we need to realize from the outset that people are generally not dishonest as such.

People are biased, and will often resort to some kind of spin to save face - the spin will usually first and foremost take place in the person's own head to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

Yadda yadda yadda, the point is, we're not actually dealing with the real point!

We're currently discussing semantics and possible dishonesty, instead of talking about the actual issue.

Subsequently, the two sides are becoming more and more antagonized and antagonistic. The situation is just escalating now.

This is getting us nowhere!
- Gnug215

YouTube channel:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnug215


The horse is a ferocious predator.
Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:09 am
InfernoContributorUser avatarPosts: 2298Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pmLocation: Vienna, Austria Gender: Cake

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

chatmaggot wrote:
australopithecus wrote:Creationists seeking truth? I'll have to start funding into a swine runway.


During the discussion between AronRa and Bob on Bob's program AronRa denied that he showed a video clip of Ken Ham while he (AronRa) talked over the video (1st Foundational Falsehood of Creationism). Yet it is there for all to see around the four minute mark. Is AronRa's denial of what his own video shows being truthful?

In the actual debate thread AronRa states:

I must contest Bob on one other point in his first post here; the definition of faith. According to a consensus of every authoritative source, dictionaries, hymns, collective philosophers, sermons of theologians past and present, and even scripture (both eastern and Abrahamic) faith is juxtaposed to reason of evidence. Faith is an unsupported assertion of stoic conviction which is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. That is why I have to reject faith as inherently auto-deceptive.


AronRa states that Bob's definition of "faith" is contested by "even scripture". How can that be when Bob quoted scripture? Bob stated:

The Bible defines faith as the proper response to "the evidence of things not seen,"


This is a direct quote from scripture. Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


How can AronRa claim that Bob's definition is contested by scripture when Bob uses scripture's definition of faith?


I don't have the time nor the stamina to listen to BobEnyart, though I did try. Just like every other creationist, it's a pain to listen to him talk. So could you please either quote the exact sentences where Aron is apparently deceptive and/or could you post the video and tell us the exact time where he makes that claim? Thanks.

Now about the whole faith business, I've addressed this in my long debate answer on my blog. Here's the important part: (I've cut unimportant and debate-specific parts with [...])

Do you accept that the two dictionaries I have quoted, plus countless others to which I can link to if you want me to, all agree that faith "does not rest on logical proof or material evidence"? Do you agree that in every day use it is almost exclusively used in this context? [...] Do you agree that many if not most religious people also use faith to mean "belief in things without evidence" and often contrary to all evidence? As an example, I put forward AiG's statement of faith, an organization that have faith in things that have already been shown wrong. (Such as the global flood or the six-day creation.) [...]
I further suggest that your definition is actually contrary to what the Bible teaches. For example, look at Proverbs3:5 which at least to me suggests that you should value faith more than reason.
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." ― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I shall achieve my objectives through the power... of Science!" --LessWrong
Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:14 am
australopithecusAdministratorUser avatarPosts: 4231Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 9:27 pmLocation: Kernow Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

The drip feed of Bob's fanboys has started then I take it?
Image
Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:59 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3065Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

chatmaggot wrote:During the discussion between AronRa and Bob on Bob's program AronRa denied that he showed a video clip of Ken Ham while he (AronRa) talked over the video (1st Foundational Falsehood of Creationism). Yet it is there for all to see around the four minute mark. Is AronRa's denial of what his own video shows being truthful?


No. it is not being truthful. It is also not relevant. Seems chatmaggot found another gottcha point against AronRa. It seems AronRa could not remember every detail from all his videos. Good work pointing that out.

chatmaggot wrote:In the actual debate thread AronRa states:

I must contest Bob on one other point in his first post here; the definition of faith. According to a consensus of every authoritative source, dictionaries, hymns, collective philosophers, sermons of theologians past and present, and even scripture (both eastern and Abrahamic) faith is juxtaposed to reason of evidence. Faith is an unsupported assertion of stoic conviction which is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. That is why I have to reject faith as inherently auto-deceptive.


AronRa states that Bob's definition of "faith" is contested by "even scripture". How can that be when Bob quoted scripture? Bob stated:

The Bible defines faith as the proper response to "the evidence of things not seen,"


This is a direct quote from scripture. Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


How can AronRa claim that Bob's definition is contested by scripture when Bob uses scripture's definition of faith?


Well if you are correct and that is how BobEnyart defined faith on air, than AronRa is in error once again. Besides the amount of words used by AronRa, I see little difference between the definition attributed to BobEnyart and the definition given by AronRa. They are both saying that faith is the belief in something that is not there.
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
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Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:27 pm
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chatmaggotUser avatarPosts: 6Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:22 am

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

he_who_is_nobody wrote:Well if you are correct and that is how BobEnyart defined faith on air, than AronRa is in error once again. Besides the amount of words used by AronRa, I see little difference between the definition attributed to BobEnyart and the definition given by AronRa. They are both saying that faith is the belief in something that is not there.


I apologize for not being clear. The definition that Bob provided was in his first post in the debate thread and AronRa's response was to that post. It wasn't anything that was said on air but in the debate thread.

Thanks.
Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:47 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3065Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

chatmaggot wrote:
he_who_is_nobody wrote:Well if you are correct and that is how BobEnyart defined faith on air, than AronRa is in error once again. Besides the amount of words used by AronRa, I see little difference between the definition attributed to BobEnyart and the definition given by AronRa. They are both saying that faith is the belief in something that is not there.


I apologize for not being clear. The definition that Bob provided was in his first post in the debate thread and AronRa's response was to that post. It wasn't anything that was said on air but in the debate thread.

Thanks.


I see. However, what I said is still true. It seems they both agree on the definition of faith. I do not understand why AronRa would contest BobEnyart's definition.
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Sat Feb 04, 2012 5:56 pm
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YesYouNeedJesusPosts: 253Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:54 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

AronRa wrote:YOUR perspective cannot account for right and wrong.

I beg to differ!

AronRa wrote:You're not judged for your works.

Yes we are. I don't think your theology is too good, but that's not a slam. I don't expect it to be, since you're an atheist.

AronRa wrote:You god ordered his people to lie, steal, pillage, murder, torture animals, and commit genocide.

Yep. And it was all justified. If God is truly the Creator, He has the right to bring people from one life to the next.

AronRa wrote:All sins can be forgiven -except disbelief.

Not true. All sins, without exception, can be forgiven. The unpardonable sin is no longer unpardonable.

AronRa wrote:Wisdom is the only damnable sin which your god is incapable of forgiving, and the only criteria on which you are judged is your gullibility. Why? Because your belief is a lie. There can be no other explanation.

It's not a lie. Even if it was, a lie is just matter rearranged differently than the matter that makes up truth. So what's wrong with that?

AronRa wrote:MY perspective however CAN account for right and wrong.

I don't think so. I watched your vid, but it didn't get anywhere. Anyone care to get to the point? I'm all ears...
Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:34 am
YesYouNeedJesusPosts: 253Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:54 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

Inferno wrote:The answer however is: Yes, we can account for morality quite easily.

I'm all ears...
Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:37 am
InfernoContributorUser avatarPosts: 2298Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pmLocation: Vienna, Austria Gender: Cake

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

YesYouNeedJesus wrote:
Inferno wrote:The answer however is: Yes, we can account for morality quite easily.

I'm all ears...


Aron already showed you the video, didn't you watch it? I specifically said: If you have questions about the content of the video, I'll be glad to answer any questions you might have. If you can't even be bothered to watch the video then I can't be bothered replying. Obviously this is a five-part video.

"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." ― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I shall achieve my objectives through the power... of Science!" --LessWrong
Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:10 am
AronRaContributorUser avatarPosts: 497Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:47 pm

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

I probably won't be able to play online for another couple of weeks, but I had to say something here.

AronRa wrote:You god ordered his people to lie, steal, pillage, murder, torture animals, and commit genocide.
Yep. And it was all justified. If God is truly the Creator, He has the right to bring people from one life to the next.
That's pretty much the same amoral excuse Krishna used in the Bhagavad Gita. There is no justification for the rampant contradictions from your despot of a god. You can't be 'without sin' while being jealous, vengeful, vain, and wroth. Forget being a 'supreme' being; if he were barely superior, he would be none of those things. He would be 'above' everything in the Bible. The first thing a real god should do would be to denounce that libelous compilation. You can't pretend that he is omniscient infallible, and precognizant when he also has to ask questions, sometimes doesn't think things through, or occasionally changes his mind.

AronRa wrote:All sins can be forgiven -except disbelief.
Not true. All sins, without exception, can be forgiven. The unpardonable sin is no longer unpardonable.
Then show me where the Bible says that Jesus was wrong in Matthew 12:31-32. Show me where the Bible says that unbelievers can be allowed into Heaven.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain
Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:57 am
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

YesYouNeedJesus wrote:
Inferno wrote:The answer however is: Yes, we can account for morality quite easily.

I'm all ears...


This is also a great series on Morality

Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:41 am
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AronRaContributorUser avatarPosts: 497Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:47 pm

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

yesyouneedjesus wrote:All sins, without exception, can be forgiven. The unpardonable sin is no longer unpardonable.
AronRa wrote:Then show me where the Bible says that Jesus was wrong in Matthew 12:31-32. Show me where the Bible says that unbelievers can be allowed into Heaven.
...but answer came there none.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain
Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:33 pm
InfernoContributorUser avatarPosts: 2298Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pmLocation: Vienna, Austria Gender: Cake

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

AronRa wrote:...but answer came there none.


They never come. We currently have 4 or 5 challenges to YYNJ, none of which have been answered.
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." ― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I shall achieve my objectives through the power... of Science!" --LessWrong
Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:47 pm
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

Inferno wrote:
AronRa wrote:...but answer came there none.


They never come. We currently have 4 or 5 challenges to YYNJ, none of which have been answered.



YYNJ has done this not only here but on Pharyngula, so it's more like 7 at least.
Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:08 pm
Anachronous RexLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 2008Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:07 pmLocation: Kansas City, MO Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

Really, are any of us surprised?
Our prefrontal lobes are too small. Much too small. That's a problem of the birth canal, I'm very sorry to say for those that like their birth canals... tight.
-C. Hitchens.
Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:12 pm
brettpalmerUser avatarPosts: 174Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:21 am Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

Anachronous Rex wrote:Really, are any of us surprised?


I'm not, in the least. He's a disciple of Bob Enyart.
Tue Feb 21, 2012 1:20 am
bluejatheistPosts: 525Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:28 pm Gender: Male

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

brettpalmer wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Really, are any of us surprised?


I'm not, in the least. He's a disciple of Bob Enyart.


He's quite a little satan isnt he
Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:22 am
AronRaContributorUser avatarPosts: 497Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:47 pm

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

AronRa wrote:show me where the Bible says that Jesus was wrong in Matthew 12:31-32. Show me where the Bible says that unbelievers can be allowed into Heaven.
Since YYNJ will not answer this question, I must assume that it is because he knows he cannot. He admits that the Bible does indeed show that all sins can be forgiven -except of course for the sin of disbelief, which is the only criteria for redemption. Those who are unable to make-believe illogical absurdities will still be damned to a fate worse than death no matter how good, kind, honest, generous, alturistic or charitable they were in life. Not even God has the ability to judge justly in that regard. So the Bible does NOT imply that anyone will be held accountable for thier sins. The only unforgiveable sin is not being gullable enough to believe unsupported unintelligeable nonsense contradictions asserted by the most dishonest and least credible sources. If you don't buy their BS, then you're gonna be sorry. That's the empty threat of their religion.

More importantly, it also shows that YYNJ knows that he was lying when he accused scientists of not 'wanting' creationists to be right -for the reasons he gave. No one resigns belief in magic imaginary djinni-like things for the reason he gave, and he apparently knows that.
"Faith means not wanting to know what is true." - Friedrich Nietzsche.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." - Mark Twain
Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:56 pm
PhilNEvoUser avatarPosts: 4Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:50 am Gender: Pinecone

Post Re: AronRa vs Bob Enyart on Real Science Friday

Have Mr. Enyart responded in any place or are you still waiting?
“Nothing is more dangerous than a dogmatic worldview - nothing more constraining, more blinding to innovation, more destructive of openness to novelty.”
- Stephen Jay Gould
Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:36 pm
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