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A NYr's reflections on 9/11

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A NYr's reflections on 9/11
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Blog of ReasonHelperUser avatarPosts: 240Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:28 pmLocation: League of Reason

Post A NYr's reflections on 9/11

Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:33 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

I really don't care that "TheTruePooka" lives in Hell's Kitchen, or is a local who was directly affected by the terrorist attacks on the WTC towers. Couldn't give half a fuck if my nuts depended on it, and I hate that it was sold to me that way. My uncle, who I was named after, worked in the north tower. I don't think that gives me extra credibility, and you can tell me to go to hell based on my family connection to the incident, because I would sure as hell say the same to you.

Given all of that, TheTruePooka is RIGHT. AMERICANS who are Muslims lived in the area around the World Trade Center for decades before 2001. AMERICAN Muslims lived through the attacks on 9/11/2001. Those same AMERICANS have a right to build whatever they want in the community that they call home.

Anyone who stands against that is a person who stands against America and its values.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:55 am
AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

This was an interesting read for me Pooka. :)

I am not American, but a bit obsessive about news at times. Fortunately, I have access to American and Canadian news. I find it all really interesting. During the WTC thing, I switched back and forth just because I found it fascinating as reports were quite different. I even flipped through the American channels, and then the Canadian news channels, and the BBC. I guess I'm crazy and obsessive. But anyway.

Someday, the Two Towers will stand again. But we must ask ourselves now;

"What do we want these Towers to mean?"


I really should be respectful and not comment as a non-American, unless you are asking my opinion. Probably not my business.

Do we wish them to be a symbol of the freedom and equality that we have always been told embody the American spirit?

Or do we wish to build an icon to the fear, bigotry and hatred that now dominate the American landscape?


That statement scares me a bit. About freedom and American spirit. I don't even know what that means. People like me need explanation. It's not a given everywhere. I need help there. :)

If you want to know my amateur obsessive compulsive analysis on the news reporting at the time just ask. I will just say, it varied in incredible and striking ways, and I really am crazy for caring so much. :)

From an outsider. Who doesn't matter anyway.
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:10 am
AmeristPosts: 73Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:34 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

I am not from New York nor have I ever been able to visit in my entire lifetime. I have written one tale with NYC as a setting,sight unseen, built upon numerous interviews. Not Post 9-11 New York either.

I am constantly bothered by the propensity for politicians to pander to the public on the most emotional issues as possible. As if the public consciousness is simply a demagogic lemon meringue pie,existing only to be sliced up and devoured in ever increasing portions (often grossly disproportionate to the substance and meaning) to move mobs.

It really intrigues me that the New York Muslim community rests heavily in that area, although it's hard not to see why it wouldn't. Through the events of 9-11 and the view that non-Muslim Americans view Muslim Americans (we're all Americans!) make them a sort of in-the-cracks minority and as the affluent flee a torn area, the less affluent shift in to take the slack.

Park 51 may be much maligned but its location is hardly offensive to anyone who can at least keep their head above the watery-eyed mob-moving fakery. I am intrigued by how the locals have viewed the behavior of the rest of the US. I've always enjoyed the letters from the sidewalk's edge, where the people on the street get a chance to voice how their community is being affected by all these eyes that stare back at the gaping wound in NYC,yet aren't engaged in it except in a metaphysical communal sympathy. Muslim or not, if a person is a US citizen they too hold fast with that same sympathy and that's more than enough for me.

I would not see another Japanese American internment happen ever again in reality or in spirit,these people don't deserve the prejudice of politicians or pundits for their religious and cultural affiliation. And I would also visit Park 51 one day when it is built, when I finally get to visit the great city in which its built. :D
Vex's Arsenal Volume 1: THE BYZANTIUM OUTCAST (ebook) - In Phoenix, when you buy things at yard sales, you never know what you'll get.
Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:20 am
TheTruePookaLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 85Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:11 pmLocation: Manhattan Gender: Male

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

ImprobableJoe wrote:I really don't care that "TheTruePooka" lives in Hell's Kitchen, or is a local who was directly affected by the terrorist attacks on the WTC towers. Couldn't give half a fuck if my nuts depended on it, and I hate that it was sold to me that way. My uncle, who I was named after, worked in the north tower. I don't think that gives me extra credibility, and you can tell me to go to hell based on my family connection to the incident, because I would sure as hell say the same to you.

Given all of that, TheTruePooka is RIGHT. AMERICANS who are Muslims lived in the area around the World Trade Center for decades before 2001. AMERICAN Muslims lived through the attacks on 9/11/2001. Those same AMERICANS have a right to build whatever they want in the community that they call home.

Anyone who stands against that is a person who stands against America and its values.



Well said, sir.
He stripped off his clothes and swam out to the shipwreck. Once there, he filled his pockets with biscuits and swam back.

Paraphrase from Robinson Crusoe.

Moments in literature; even the greatest fiction writers sometimes screw up!
Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:31 am
TheTruePookaLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 85Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:11 pmLocation: Manhattan Gender: Male

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

Andiferous wrote:
That statement scares me a bit. About freedom and American spirit. I don't even know what that means. People like me need explanation. It's not a given everywhere. I need help there. :)

If you want to know my amateur obsessive compulsive analysis on the news reporting at the time just ask. I will just say, it varied in incredible and striking ways, and I really am crazy for caring so much. :)

From an outsider. Who doesn't matter anyway.


Heh, I always welcome amateur analysis.

The meaning of that sentence varies greatly from person to person. For me, it means the basic tenants of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." The ideals set down by Thomas Jefferson in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The civil rights movement.

The American spirit is the idealized version of Americans. Generous, boisterous, friendly, high spirited... qualities we boast about but often do not exhibit. :P
He stripped off his clothes and swam out to the shipwreck. Once there, he filled his pockets with biscuits and swam back.

Paraphrase from Robinson Crusoe.

Moments in literature; even the greatest fiction writers sometimes screw up!
Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:42 am
TheTruePookaLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 85Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:11 pmLocation: Manhattan Gender: Male

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

Amerist wrote:I am not from New York nor have I ever been able to visit in my entire lifetime. I have written one tale with NYC as a setting,sight unseen, built upon numerous interviews. Not Post 9-11 New York either.

I am constantly bothered by the propensity for politicians to pander to the public on the most emotional issues as possible. As if the public consciousness is simply a demagogic lemon meringue pie,existing only to be sliced up and devoured in ever increasing portions (often grossly disproportionate to the substance and meaning) to move mobs.

It really intrigues me that the New York Muslim community rests heavily in that area, although it's hard not to see why it wouldn't. Through the events of 9-11 and the view that non-Muslim Americans view Muslim Americans (we're all Americans!) make them a sort of in-the-cracks minority and as the affluent flee a torn area, the less affluent shift in to take the slack.

Park 51 may be much maligned but its location is hardly offensive to anyone who can at least keep their head above the watery-eyed mob-moving fakery. I am intrigued by how the locals have viewed the behavior of the rest of the US. I've always enjoyed the letters from the sidewalk's edge, where the people on the street get a chance to voice how their community is being affected by all these eyes that stare back at the gaping wound in NYC,yet aren't engaged in it except in a metaphysical communal sympathy. Muslim or not, if a person is a US citizen they too hold fast with that same sympathy and that's more than enough for me.

I would not see another Japanese American internment happen ever again in reality or in spirit,these people don't deserve the prejudice of politicians or pundits for their religious and cultural affiliation. And I would also visit Park 51 one day when it is built, when I finally get to visit the great city in which its built. :D


I'd guess there are between 600,000 and 1,000,000 Muslims in NYC. This is just one of many such communities. It has grown in the last 30 years; I'd guess it has grown in the past ten because property values in that area are depressed in value. Like you said; immigrants tend to take advantage of such things.

But one thing people forget; the WTC had prayer rooms for Muslims in them. This center would technically be replacing that loss.

Otherwise; you've got a good perspective on the whole thing. On politics in general. :)
He stripped off his clothes and swam out to the shipwreck. Once there, he filled his pockets with biscuits and swam back.

Paraphrase from Robinson Crusoe.

Moments in literature; even the greatest fiction writers sometimes screw up!
Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:47 am
LuweewuPosts: 8Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:31 am Gender: Male

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

have many.. but apparently an IQ of 157 s not enough
Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:02 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

Luweewu wrote:have many.. but apparently an IQ of 157 s not enough

Not when it is distributed amongst you and 4-5 of your closest friends. :)
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:58 am
doctormoUser avatarPosts: 11Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:18 pmLocation: Boston, MA Gender: Tree

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

Thanks for the good post.

TheTruePooka wrote:The meaning of that sentence varies greatly from person to person. For me, it means the basic tenants of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." The ideals set down by Thomas Jefferson in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The civil rights movement.


"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". As a creed it isn't half bad, just a shame that tacked onto the end in practice is " at the detriment of others". There is a certain missing element of understanding when it comes to non-zero-sum games and the assumption in modern American culture that critical thinking is somehow un-patriotic as it would lead you to question your countries actions and maybe even your religion.

TheTruePooka wrote:The American spirit is the idealized version of Americans. Generous, boisterous, friendly, high spirited... qualities we boast about but often do not exhibit. :P


Too much has been allowed to be defined by practical ethics and it's not exactly as recent a corruption of the ideal as we like to think. Sure it's ok to weigh up what to do in the immediacy, but to allow such a thing to become moral policy was a big mistake.
Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:24 pm
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AndiferousUser avatarPosts: 2727Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 7:00 amLocation: Laputa Gender: Time Lord

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

TheTruePooka wrote:Heh, I always welcome amateur analysis.

The meaning of that sentence varies greatly from person to person. For me, it means the basic tenants of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." The ideals set down by Thomas Jefferson in the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom. The civil rights movement.

The American spirit is the idealized version of Americans. Generous, boisterous, friendly, high spirited... qualities we boast about but often do not exhibit. :P

Well, at the time it seemed to me that the major American news focused on a kind of snowball of angry things. It was disturbing to see the "time filler" segments between the two tower reporting focused on Muslims dancing around a burning American flag. I did not see that sort of reporting done from any other source. It makes me think that it was an emotional viewers' grab at the time. And I think it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. Hard to say.

I think it was a timely method of reporting to really piss a lot of people off, though.
"As there seemed no measure between what Watt could understand, and what he could not, so there seemed none between what he deemed certain, and what he deemed doubtful."
~ Samuel Beckett, Watt
Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:27 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

Well said. It must stand for freedom and not the contrary to freedom.
Unsupport unthink.
Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:01 pm
marieleeUser avatarPosts: 92Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:30 pm Gender: Female

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

///////This is what angered me so much about Thunderf00t's video. It was clearly yet another attempt to ride the emotional tide of Ground Zero. The great Thunderf00t, long known as a scion of education, reason and logic on YouTube, had spoken out on the issue and had not addressed any of the real facts, had not applied his supposed keen, razor sharp intellect to the falsehoods and bigotry flying about; instead he had created a video that in my opinion, was total, absolute shit. Like many others before him he had gone the base, common route of indulging himself in fallacy and hate at the expense of reason; at the expense of the people who call that neighborhood"¦ "home".///////////


Even though I don't agree with most of TF's vids (i.e. WDPLAC) lol... I agreed with him totally on Ground Zero. I thought he was being VERY reasonable.

To me, TF was basically saying, they have every "right" to build it, but they shouldn't. Out of respect for those who were murdered, and those lost loved ones, they could back down. (Thats what he was saying, wasn't he?)

Just as we have every "right" to burn the Quran, the Bible, or The God Delusion.... but should we? Out of respect, we could back down.

Where's the hate in that?




...
"Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.” John 4:48
Wed Oct 13, 2010 7:07 pm
Anachronous RexLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 2008Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:07 pmLocation: Kansas City, MO Gender: Male

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

marielee wrote:///////This is what angered me so much about Thunderf00t's video. It was clearly yet another attempt to ride the emotional tide of Ground Zero. The great Thunderf00t, long known as a scion of education, reason and logic on YouTube, had spoken out on the issue and had not addressed any of the real facts, had not applied his supposed keen, razor sharp intellect to the falsehoods and bigotry flying about; instead he had created a video that in my opinion, was total, absolute shit. Like many others before him he had gone the base, common route of indulging himself in fallacy and hate at the expense of reason; at the expense of the people who call that neighborhood"¦ "home".///////////


Even though I don't agree with most of TF's vids (i.e. WDPLAC) lol... I agreed with him totally on Ground Zero. I thought he was being VERY reasonable.

To me, TF was basically saying, they have every "right" to build it, but they shouldn't. Out of respect for those who were murdered, and those lost loved ones, they could back down. (Thats what he was saying, wasn't he?)

Just as we have every "right" to burn the Quran, the Bible, or The God Delusion.... but should we? Out of respect, we could back down.

Where's the hate in that?




...

Oh, I don't know, for instance -and this is just one example- there were mosques in the World Trade Center! There were Muslims in the World Trade Center. They died too, and now they are shamed for building a cultural center that contains a prayer space within two blocks of the site because... why?

Explain it to me.
Our prefrontal lobes are too small. Much too small. That's a problem of the birth canal, I'm very sorry to say for those that like their birth canals... tight.
-C. Hitchens.
Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:05 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

marielee wrote:///////This is what angered me so much about Thunderf00t's video. It was clearly yet another attempt to ride the emotional tide of Ground Zero. The great Thunderf00t, long known as a scion of education, reason and logic on YouTube, had spoken out on the issue and had not addressed any of the real facts, had not applied his supposed keen, razor sharp intellect to the falsehoods and bigotry flying about; instead he had created a video that in my opinion, was total, absolute shit. Like many others before him he had gone the base, common route of indulging himself in fallacy and hate at the expense of reason; at the expense of the people who call that neighborhood"¦ "home".///////////


Even though I don't agree with most of TF's vids (i.e. WDPLAC) lol... I agreed with him totally on Ground Zero. I thought he was being VERY reasonable.

To me, TF was basically saying, they have every "right" to build it, but they shouldn't. Out of respect for those who were murdered, and those lost loved ones, they could back down. (Thats what he was saying, wasn't he?)

Just as we have every "right" to burn the Quran, the Bible, or The God Delusion.... but should we? Out of respect, we could back down.

Where's the hate in that?




...

Why do you hate America, America's values, and your fellow Americans? T-f00tie can be forgiven because he's British(and a bigot), but here in America we don't generally refer to our fellow Americans as an alien "they" and claim that "they" shouldn't do things because "we" don't like it. There's only "us", and that "us" includes the people building the Islamic cultural center.

If you're not with your fellow Americans, then you're choosing to pull yourself out of "us". That's your business if you want to do so, but stop pretending that other people are the ones who don't belong.
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:01 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

To me, TF was basically saying, they have every "right" to build it, but they shouldn't. Out of respect for those who were murdered, and those lost loved ones, they could back down. (Thats what he was saying, wasn't he?)

Just as we have every "right" to burn the Quran, the Bible, or The God Delusion.... but should we? Out of respect, we could back down.

Where's the hate in that?


:lol: It's ironic that someone who has faith sees TF's message. Well done. I applaud your critical analysis. We agree on this one. Also, I like how you stated your position.

They can, but shouldn't, because out of respect for the fallen. I didn't think about it that way and that is called courtesy.
Unsupport unthink.
Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:08 pm
marieleeUser avatarPosts: 92Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:30 pm Gender: Female

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

Anachronous Rex wrote: Oh, I don't know, for instance -and this is just one example- there were mosques in the World Trade Center! There were Muslims in the World Trade Center. They died too, and now they are shamed for building a cultural center that contains a prayer space within two blocks of the site because... why?

Explain it to me.



I don't think they are being shamed. Voicing opinion about not wanting it built there (even though yes, they have every right) to me is understandable. We just don't agree.

Didn't even Donald Trump ask to buy it up - just so we all could have peace about it? But they refused him, didnt they? So, I'll ask you the same question.... why?

Why did they refuse if they are the religion of "peace"?


(Just want to add that even though I'm a creationist, and I dont agree with most of TF ideoligies.. I believe Jesus Christ is the Truth of all.. I do agree with TF in a sence that (radical) Islam could be one of the most dangerous threats to all of us. )


..
"Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.” John 4:48
Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:24 pm
marieleeUser avatarPosts: 92Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:30 pm Gender: Female

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

ImprobableJoe wrote: Why do you hate America, America's values, and your fellow Americans? T-f00tie can be forgiven because he's British(and a bigot), but here in America we don't generally refer to our fellow Americans as an alien "they" and claim that "they" shouldn't do things because "we" don't like it. There's only "us", and that "us" includes the people building the Islamic cultural center.

If you're not with your fellow Americans, then you're choosing to pull yourself out of "us". That's your business if you want to do so, but stop pretending that other people are the ones who don't belong.



I seriously do not understand where you are coming from. I'm sorry if I'm missing something. Hate has nothing to do with willfull submission. I'm only saying they could back down. Yes they have the right. Yes we need our freedoms. But they could back down.



..
"Then Jesus said to him, “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.” John 4:48
Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:32 pm
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

marielee wrote:
I seriously do not understand where you are coming from. I'm sorry if I'm missing something. Hate has nothing to do with willfull submission. I'm only saying they could back down. Yes they have the right. Yes we need our freedoms. But they could back down.



..

Who the hell is "they"? Who is "we"? Aren't "they" part of "we"?
Come visit my blog! There will be punch and pie!
Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:10 pm
Anachronous RexLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 2008Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:07 pmLocation: Kansas City, MO Gender: Male

Post Re: A NY’rs reflections on 9/11

marielee wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote: Oh, I don't know, for instance -and this is just one example- there were mosques in the World Trade Center! There were Muslims in the World Trade Center. They died too, and now they are shamed for building a cultural center that contains a prayer space within two blocks of the site because... why?

Explain it to me.



I don't think they are being shamed. Voicing opinion about not wanting it built there (even though yes, they have every right) to me is understandable. We just don't agree.

Didn't even Donald Trump ask to buy it up - just so we all could have peace about it? But they refused him, didnt they? So, I'll ask you the same question.... why?

Why did they refuse if they are the religion of "peace"?

Indeed, why would any religious group choose not to give into perfectly reasonable demands that they relocate, so as to avoid offense?

I'm sure that if a bunch of us atheists stated that we find it offense that you Christians build churches in the District of Columbia - the heart of our secular republic - you would all happily cease doing so.

And while we're on the subject, do you happen to support the state of Israel? just sayin'...
Our prefrontal lobes are too small. Much too small. That's a problem of the birth canal, I'm very sorry to say for those that like their birth canals... tight.
-C. Hitchens.
Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:53 pm
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