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On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

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On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point
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Blog of ReasonHelperUser avatarPosts: 240Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:28 pmLocation: League of Reason

Post On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:02 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

TF's new video does not highlight that you misunderstood him. It can be observed that he highly values your input. If someone who thinks like you could misinterpret his video, it only means that he must have made a mistake and created an ambiguous or unclear video. In short, he is blaming himself for the ambiguity.

Now the content of the new video itself refers to his explanation or clarification of what the first video contained.

;)
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:14 pm
TylzenUser avatarPosts: 156Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:58 pmLocation: Denmark Gender: Cake

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Been subbed to DLandonCole for awhile, and I was also surprised that Tf00t did not touch upon his points.
But took other people's videos and sort of grounded them into the Earth.
Hmm, I still stick to my opinion that Tf00t should stick to purely scientific videos, these political videos are not his strong side.

Honestly though the more I hear about Tf00t from other people on Skype, he seems to not like when people criticise or asks him justified questions.
Even though the questions and criticism is formulated maturely and well-thought of.

Sigh
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:17 pm
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lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Tylzen wrote:Been subbed to DLandonCole for awhile, and I was also surprised that Tf00t did not touch upon his points.
But took other people's videos and sort of grounded them into the Earth.
Hmm, I still stick to my opinion that Tf00t should stick to purely scientific videos, these political videos are not his strong side.

Honestly though the more I hear about Tf00t from other people on Skype, he seems to not like when people criticise or asks him justified questions.
Even though the questions and criticism is formulated maturely and well-thought of.

Sigh


I agree with the highlighted portion.
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:22 pm
AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

lrkun wrote:TF's new video does not highlight that you misunderstood him. It can be observed that he highly values your input. If someone who thinks like you could misinterpret his video, it only means that he must have made a mistake and created an ambiguous or unclear video. In short, he is blaming himself for the ambiguity.

Now the content of the new video itself refers to his explanation or clarification of what the first video contained.

;)


No, it suggests that he thinks I drew the wrong conclusion.

Thunderf00t wrote:I mean if folk like AndromedasWake watched this video and drew the conclusion that I was suggesting that we act like Saudi Arabia, then clearly I missed the mark.

In my comment I insinuated that the message was entirely unclear, but as I have expressed in this post I did not arrive at this conclusion. I did not arrive at any conclusion. I asked a question, and it is presented as a loaded, or rhetorical question, when it is actually an effort to clarify the point.

If he valued my question, he might have simply responded to it. And if he valued my input, he might have addressed DLandonCole whom I expressly brought to his attention privately. I do appreciate that he is blaming himself for ambiguity at the beginning of the video, which is fine. I take issue with the fact that he then just highlighted some users twisting his words rather than a user who levelled legitimate criticisms against his videos, such as the use of analogy and false equivocation.

The new video is sort of clearer than the first. Sort of. Still the only way I could really clarify his stance was by process of elimination from a number of possibilities. His videos appear to be merely stating that it is hypocritical for any Muslim to plead tolerance, which itself is not a good argument against tolerance. Worse still, it's not intended to be an argument against tolerance, since Thunderf00t believes the rights should be unaffected. Therefore, the videos appear (to me) to make no point whatsoever, hence the titular 'elusive point'. ;)
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:26 pm
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lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

I understand why he would think you made the conclusion.

His Video says so. your Question suggests so. Therefore, this is so.

It's because you're focusing on a certain assumption. Maybe the better question would be, TF, what are you suggesting? Hehe.
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:39 pm
AndromedasWakeLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 598Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:38 pmLocation: Captain's Chair, League HQ Gender: Cake

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

lrkun wrote:I understand why he would think you made the conclusion.

His Video says so. your Question suggests so. Therefore, this is so.

It's because you're focusing on a certain assumption. Maybe the better question would be, TF, what are you suggesting? Hehe.

Sloppy communication perhaps? Still, I maintain that a question is not a conclusion. Had I said...
I can't believe you're advocating sinking to the level of the Saudi government!

...then I'd be convinced. The only reason Saudi Arabia came up is because he falsely equivocated Saudi discrimination with the unknown beliefs of Rauf (an Arab-American, born in Kuwait.)

This combined with the analogy is what led me and other commenters to think "surely he's not suggesting we treat the Muslims like Saudis treat Christians, is he?"

As I said, ignorance and incredulity motivated my question, and if he believed I was being presumptuous about the conclusion, a simple yes or no would have cleared it up pretty neatly.
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:50 pm
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lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

AndromedasWake wrote:Sloppy communication perhaps? Still, I maintain that a question is not a conclusion. Had I said...
I can't believe you're advocating sinking to the level of the Saudi government!

AndromedasWake wrote:...then I'd be convinced. The only reason Saudi Arabia came up is because he falsely equivocated Saudi discrimination with the unknown beliefs of Rauf (an Arab-American, born in Kuwait.)

This combined with the analogy is what led me and other commenters to think "surely he's not suggesting we treat the Muslims like Saudis treat Christians, is he?"

As I said, ignorance and incredulity motivated my question, and if he believed I was being presumptuous about the conclusion, a simple yes or no would have cleared it up pretty neatly.


I agree, it is a case of sloppy communication. I guess he didn't respond well to the question. It happens.
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:57 pm
CRHThreeUser avatarPosts: 21Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:08 pmLocation: U.S Georgia Gender: Male

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

AndromedasWake wrote:
The new video is sort of clearer than the first. Sort of. Still the only way I could really clarify his stance was by process of elimination from a number of possibilities. His videos appear to be merely stating that it is hypocritical for any Muslim to plead tolerance, which itself is not a good argument against tolerance. Worse still, it's not intended to be an argument against tolerance, since Thunderf00t believes the rights should be unaffected. Therefore, the videos appear (to me) to make no point whatsoever, hence the titular 'elusive point'. ;)


I agree. I haven't exactly been a big observer of TF's videos, I usually watching thing that you, andromedaswake, post (because I myself love astronomy) or Aronra, and SR. but people have been talking about this quite a bit and i decided to look into it. And like everyone I didn't really get the point of the video. what i really saw was him saying " They have the right, but I don't like it." In other words it was just completely opinionated. The guy seems really smart, but he seems to be doing what a lot of religious people do in their arguments and is allowing his bias to stand in the way of forward thinking. I hope he does not for long because that is bad science.
Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:44 pm
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CRHThreeUser avatarPosts: 21Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:08 pmLocation: U.S Georgia Gender: Male

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

on a side note is it my personal opinion that we'd be better off without all religions.....but then again...where would i find my entertainment in watching people debunk creationists...
Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:45 pm
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dlandoncolePosts: 2Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:08 pm

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

First off, my thanks to AndromedasWake and Tylzen for their kind words.

I should say that I absolutely do not want Thunderf00t to stick to science. I want him to bring his considerable intellect to bear on the social sciences but with the same use of the scientific method that he has so effectively used in some of his other YouTube videos and, I'm sure, his professional life.

I do recognise that there's a lot of (frankly rubbish) political commentary out there that does away with the sceptical principles to which I try to adhere; it's very tempting to drop down a level and reply in kind (and I have myself). I just don't think it achieves that much. My background is political science and I work for a thinktank now. I do try to encourage people to be sceptical - in the best sense of the word - but it's hard. I am firmly convinced that, although it's not as straightforward and the results not as neat as in the hard sciences, it is appropriate and useful to maintain a sceptical outlook in the social sciences. Thunderf00t could, I think, do that really very well and cut through a lot of the nonsense that is out there, in many fields.

I've made a reply to Thunderf00t's second video on Park51, which can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJGlc1xpEN0.

DLC.
Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:21 pm
dlandoncolePosts: 2Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:08 pm

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Further to my comment, I do think that Thunderf00t should have linked to the people who he mentioned in his second video. Citation and all that, not to mention that it's put some people's noses out of joint.
Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:37 pm
Jotto999User avatarPosts: 572Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:18 amLocation: Ontario, Canada Gender: Male

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Tylzen wrote:Hmm, I still stick to my opinion that Tf00t should stick to purely scientific videos, these political videos are not his strong side.Sigh

I have seen this said before, and I agree fully with it. There is always great contrast in my satisfaction between his science-oriented videos and his political ones. I can't get enough of his WDPLAC series. This ground zero thing, not at all.
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:46 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Jotto999 wrote:
Tylzen wrote:Hmm, I still stick to my opinion that Tf00t should stick to purely scientific videos, these political videos are not his strong side.Sigh

I have seen this said before, and I agree fully with it. There is always great contrast in my satisfaction between his science-oriented videos and his political ones. I can't get enough of his WDPLAC series. This ground zero thing, not at all.


I third the motion.
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Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:55 pm
televatorUser avatarPosts: 1252Joined: Wed Sep 01, 2010 12:02 amLocation: In hell, rocking out with Satan! Gender: Cake

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

First time I saw the vid, I also felt confused as to what I just saw. It didn't help that I just saw Pat Condell's video just before TF's. I left a response where I totally assumed he was saying something contradicting.

Then I saw DLandonCole's response, and I came away from it with a bit more focus and I agree with many of his other objections to TF's video. However, I do not completely remove the possibility that perhaps TF still hasn't effectively and clearly communicated his points.
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Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:39 am
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

televator wrote:First time I saw the vid, I also felt confused as to what I just saw. It didn't help that I just saw Pat Condell's video just before TF's. I left a response where I totally assumed he was saying something contradicting.

Then I saw DLandonCole's response, and I came away from it with a bit more focus and I agree with many of his other objections to TF's video. However, I do not completely remove the possibility that perhaps TF still hasn't effectively and clearly communicated his points.


This is so. TF's presentation of both videos can be misinterpreted. However, both interpretations are valid, because that reflects reality.

TF's intent might be different, but if others interpret it in such a way, then it only follows that the presentation is ambiguous. Nevertheless, I don't agree with most of his critics opine. Well, maybe each person views this scenario depending on their own personal bias or position on the matter.

Consequently, TF doesn't make it any easier for pursuing this issue in his own style. On the other hand, he doesn't owe anyone any explanation on the matter.
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Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:52 am
Master_Ghost_KnightContributorUser avatarPosts: 2750Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:57 pmLocation: Netherlands Gender: Male

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Here is what I think (not that anyone cares), Tfoot clearly meant what was understood. It was an extremely biggoted comment period, maybe he didn't realise it but that is what it is and trying to deny the obvious is just being closed minded, if he didn't meant what he said (I doubt that very much and if you state otherwise be prepared to back it up because I can prove you wrong) then he should have made it clearer the second go arround (he had enough criticisms to realise the objections being made) and not to compile and extremely poor excuse saying that he hasn't said "those" exact words while his entire message blatantly passes the message sumarized by them without recuring to interpretation.

A good exercise I sugest to everyone is to figure out what a person is trying to say rather to just focus on the words being spoken, because the message is what is tryed to be conveyed and the words are just the means to it. And it is also a very mature thing to do not to just dwell on the superficial but to atribute to the spokesperson the direct implication of what he is saying. You are not inconsequential teenagers anymore (well at least I hope you are not) you have to look at the consequences of what you do rather than just what you do.

But here is the pointless part of thi entire topic. Tfoot will never recieve any of this criticism, he will never know that they exist because he has never set foot here. He waves the banner of the League of Reason when it suits him, but he doesn't give a shit about anyone elses reasons (and fuck you if you don't like it bluntly). The ShrederIsAlive has made a half baked joke of a criticism of the League of Reason, but there was something that I couldn't counter, the league of reason that is prety much build upon the interchage of ideas has Tfoot who hasn't participate a yota to it and yet he is still prety much the face of this thing.
We have recieved completly unwarrented a missleaded criticism for it and we can not really completly defend from it.

I know this is probably a bad time to sugest to cut all the ties between thunderfoot and the League of Reason (similarly with all the other hosts that appear on the show who have never set their foot here). And I really don't know of a way to do it without to much drama or recieve a great backlash from the number of atendants making this a situation out of control, perhaps for now I will be happy if they get a kick in the balls to start paying more attention that if they want this to move forward the way it is then they better work for it or hit the road.
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Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:50 pm
lrkunUser avatarPosts: 3831Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:37 pmLocation: R. Gender: Tree

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Master_Ghost_Knight wrote:Here is what I think (not that anyone cares), Tfoot clearly meant what was understood.
That is subject to debate.
It was an extremely biggoted comment period, maybe he didn't realise it but that is what it is and trying to deny the obvious is just being closed minded, if he didn't meant what he said (I doubt that very much and if you state otherwise be prepared to back it up because I can prove you wrong) then he should have made it clearer the second go arround (he had enough criticisms to realise the objections being made) and not to compile and extremely poor excuse saying that he hasn't said "those" exact words while his entire message blatantly passes the message sumarized by them without recuring to interpretation.
With respect to his first video, it is very ambiguous. With respect to his second video, he is suggesting that the syllogism suggests some sort of conclusion. However, due to his assumptions, well, it can be interpreted in another light. Furthermore, even if his intent is one thing, what really matters is how a reasonable observer views the situation. That is a person who knows the facts and can discern his own opinion without bias.


A good exercise I sugest to everyone is to figure out what a person is trying to say rather to just focus on the words being spoken, because the message is what is tryed to be conveyed and the words are just the means to it.
I agree with you, thank you for reminding us of this cool exercise.
And it is also a very mature thing to do not to just dwell on the superficial but to atribute to the spokesperson the direct implication of what he is saying. You are not inconsequential teenagers anymore (well at least I hope you are not) you have to look at the consequences of what you do rather than just what you do.

But here is the pointless part of thi entire topic. Tfoot will never recieve any of this criticism, he will never know that they exist because he has never set foot here. He waves the banner of the League of Reason when it suits him, but he doesn't give a shit about anyone elses reasons (and fuck you if you don't like it bluntly). The ShrederIsAlive has made a half baked joke of a criticism of the League of Reason, but there was something that I couldn't counter, the league of reason that is prety much build upon the interchage of ideas has Tfoot who hasn't participate a yota to it and yet he is still prety much the face of this thing.
We have recieved completly unwarrented a missleaded criticism for it and we can not really completly defend from it.
That is true


I know this is probably a bad time to sugest to cut all the ties between thunderfoot and the League of Reason (similarly with all the other hosts that appear on the show who have never set their foot here). And I really don't know of a way to do it without to much drama or recieve a great backlash from the number of atendants making this a situation out of control, perhaps for now I will be happy if they get a kick in the balls to start paying more attention that if they want this to move forward the way it is then they better work for it or hit the road.
I've always thought this forum was about individuality, so I doubt if there are ties to be cut.
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Thu Sep 02, 2010 5:57 pm
TheTruePookaLeague LegendUser avatarPosts: 85Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 4:11 pmLocation: Manhattan Gender: Male

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

dlandoncole wrote:First off, my thanks to AndromedasWake and Tylzen for their kind words.

I should say that I absolutely do not want Thunderf00t to stick to science. I want him to bring his considerable intellect to bear on the social sciences but with the same use of the scientific method that he has so effectively used in some of his other YouTube videos and, I'm sure, his professional life.

I do recognise that there's a lot of (frankly rubbish) political commentary out there that does away with the sceptical principles to which I try to adhere; it's very tempting to drop down a level and reply in kind (and I have myself). I just don't think it achieves that much. My background is political science and I work for a thinktank now. I do try to encourage people to be sceptical - in the best sense of the word - but it's hard. I am firmly convinced that, although it's not as straightforward and the results not as neat as in the hard sciences, it is appropriate and useful to maintain a sceptical outlook in the social sciences. Thunderf00t could, I think, do that really very well and cut through a lot of the nonsense that is out there, in many fields.

I've made a reply to Thunderf00t's second video on Park51, which can be found at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJGlc1xpEN0.

DLC.


I frankly do not know what to make of tf00t's video and stance on this whole issue.

I had always assumed that his past videos dealt with such people and their belief systems fairly. He points out the flaws and fallacies of the beliefs, but acknowledges that there are degrees of morality when it comes to the level of fallacy and the person's intent.

I am being told repeatedly that this is not true. His stance on Islam is no different than that of Christianity.

So; has he always taken a position that there is no difference between say;

1: A casual Christian who claims belief in a God but that belief is not a majorly defining factor in their lives.

2: A Creationist such as Nephilimfree.

Because if that is the case, then it seems I did misunderstand his mission on YT and what he seeks to achieve.

From a sociological standpoint, a refusal to recognize any difference between the two leaves you in a very dangerous position. Such a position leaves you with no room for negotiation, no room for making allies to achieve short term gains that will aid you in achieving success in the long run goal of a gradual, peaceful Westernization of Religions that will ideally lead to a peaceful co-existence under secular civil law.
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Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:09 am
ImprobableJoeUser avatarPosts: 6195Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:24 pm

Post Re: On Thunderf00t, Park51 and the elusive point

Here's my take on things:

T-f00t made a bunch of videos called "Why do people laugh at creationists?" He didn't target all Christians, or all theists of an Abrahamic bent, or all theists of any stripe. He correctly focused his attention on the ridiculous beliefs and often dishonest behavior of a particular stripe of fundamentalist theist. The focus was a correct and reasonable choice on his part. People DO laugh at creationist, and those laughing folks include more reasonable theists who understand and respect the findings of science. T-f00t seems to have understood that the focus needs to be on specific beliefs, actions, and even people.

When he talks about Muslims, he seems to lose that focus and discernment. Where he targets Christian creationist liars while seemingly avoiding intentional attacks on more moderate Christians, there appears to be a broad-brush tarring of all Muslims for the actions of a few. I think that the "misunderstanding" of his position comes from the fact that the tone of the anti-creationist screeds is a narrow and precise aiming at specific things, while the anti-Muslim rants are wide and scattershot attacks at all Muslims no matter which branch of Islam they follow or what their personal beliefs and behaviors they actually display.

In other words, Thunderf00t's videos about Christianity target specific crazy Christians, and the ones about Islam seem to target all Muslims. The conclusion that he's got some anti-Muslim bigotry going on may in fact be wrong, but it is certainly not unfounded.
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Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:06 am
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