Elsewhere on the internet...

The League of Reason has some social media accounts! You can find us on Facebook or on Twitter for some interesting links and things.

Gay marriage in minesota

Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 14 of 14
 [ 277 posts ] 
Gay marriage in minesota
Author Message
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3209Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Greetings,

Metalgod wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:Which doesn't make sense, as access to testing and - most importantly - medication would be more prevalent in the US.

From where are you getting your figures?


The CDC and wikipedia. Seems In the US a greater percentage of people who have HIV also have AIDS. But I need to find them again so I can make sure this is true.

One possible explanation is America's attitude to homosexuality, which you are displaying, and its impact on information and healthcare provision for the LGBT community.

Due to lack of information/healthcare and the discouragement that they would feel to seeking health checks, etc - similar to sex workers - they would be more prone to STIs, including HIV.

Metalgod wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:The actual study for the second article is here:
False Positive HIV Diagnoses in Resource Limited Settings: Operational Lessons Learned for HIV Programmes


Thank you. After reading it, it seems to me to be more of a study on a test trial done in 3 or 4 different HIV clinics in Africa for the purpose of providing a model for implementation of better testing methods across the continent. The fact that this study is was only done about a year ago decreases the likelyhood that the statistics which you posted earlier on HIV in Africa was based on the results of these tests.

The PLOS study was submitted in 2012.

The "over 60%" statistic, which relates solely to Africa, is still relevant as it refers to figures from 2011:

HIV/AIDS is a major public health concern and cause of death in many parts of Africa. Although the continent is home to about 15.2 percent of the world's population,[1] Sub-Saharan Africa alone accounted for an estimated 69 percent of all people living with HIV[2] and 70 percent of all AIDS deaths in 2011.[3]

Countries in North Africa and the Horn of Africa have significantly lower prevalence rates, as their populations typically engage in fewer high-risk cultural patterns that have been implicated in the virus's spread in Sub-Saharan Africa.[4][5] Southern Africa is the worst affected region on the continent. As of 2011, HIV has infected at least 10 percent of the population in Botswana, Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Zambia, and Zimbabwe.[6]

^ Current World Population, Nations Online, 2012
^ a b "Global Fact Sheet", Joint United Nations Programme on HIV and AIDS, 20 November 2012
^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z aa ab ac ad ae af ag ah ai aj ak al am an ao ap aq ar as at au av aw ax ay "UNAIDS Report on the Global AIDS Epidemic 2012". Retrieved 13 May 2013.
^ a b c d e f g h "UNAIDS Report on the Global AIDS Epidemic 2010". Retrieved 2011-06-08.
^ a b c d e f g "Religious and cultural traits in HIV/AIDS epidemics in sub-Saharan Africa" (PDF). Retrieved 2010-06-27.
^ a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z aa ab ac ad ae af ag ah ai aj ak al am an ao ap aq ar as at au av aw ax ay az ba "Prevalence of HIV, total (% of population ages 15-49)".

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:15 pm
MetalgodBannedUser avatarPosts: 196Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Dragan Glas wrote:The PLOS study was submitted in 2012.

The "over 60%" statistic, which relates solely to Africa, is still relevant as it refers to figures from 2011:

HIV/AIDS is a major public health concern and cause of death in many parts of Africa. Although the continent is home to about 15.2 percent of the world's population,[1] Sub-Saharan Africa alone accounted for an estimated 69 percent of all people living with HIV[2] and 70 percent of all AIDS deaths in 2011.[3]

Countries in North Africa and the Horn of Africa have significantly lower prevalence rates, as their populations typically engage in fewer high-risk cultural patterns that have been implicated in the virus's spread in Sub-Saharan Africa.[4][5] Southern Africa is the worst affected region on the continent. As of 2011, HIV has infected at least 10 percent of the population in Botswana, Lesotho, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa, Swaziland, Zambia, and Zimbabwe


You seem to think that by posting lots of statistics you prove the accuracy of the testing methods involved. At first I thought this was a simple error on your part but you keep doing it.

Please re-read my post on how microbes found in unclean drinking water cause false positives for HIV. Then read the entire wiki you linked to above. Pay special attention to "The World Health Organization states that about 2.5 percent of HIV infections in Sub-Saharan Africa are caused by unsafe medical injection practices" Spend a bit of free time learning about HIV testing in general and how AIDS is diagnosed in the US and in Africa and then come back and tell me where it is we will find the most reliable statistics we have on HIV/AIDS. In the US or in Sub-Sahara Africa?
Last edited by Metalgod on Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:40 pm
MetalgodBannedUser avatarPosts: 196Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Metalgod wrote:
Inferno wrote:Now comes the interesting part. Considering that there was and still is a huge stigma on homosexual partnership, that there is little information from the families whose children are most at risk (that is to say low-income and socially poorer families) and that homosexuality tended to be, until very recently, a very secretive matter.
Under these circumstances, is it surprising that some STDs are more likely to be contracted by homosexuals? That is not to say that homosexual sex is intrinsically more dangerous, but that these people were deprived of proper protection for some reason or another.

I can prove it to you, too!
If the STD rates are perfectly equal among heterosexual people of all races/ethnicities, then you're right and I'm wrong, it's as simple as that.
If however the STD rates are NOT the same, then we have to assume that rates of STDs are not primarily governed by sexual practice but rather by education and wealth.

And what do you know, the rates are not equal.
The rates of STDs among African Americans (typically the poorest and least educated demographic) are 7.5 times higher for Chlamydia, 17 times higher for Gonorrhoea and 6.7 times higher for Syphilis. That's always compared to white people.
American Indians and Alaskan natives have about 4 times the prevalence and Hispanics about two times the cases.

That's an interesting find, wouldn't you say?
Note: One interesting thing you'll notice is that Asian/Pacific Islanders have lower rates. Though I don't know how to check that, that's likely because Islanders don't tend to come into contact with these diseases much.)

Another indicator is that most STDs are contracted between the ages of 15-24. Between 62-70% of cases are contracted in that time. Interestingly, that's also the time you're least educated on the subject, where you're most likely to engage in risky behaviour and when you're most likely to be afraid to reveal your sexual identity for fear of societal repercussions.

Black americans are not identified by their sexual behavior.
Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:41 pm
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

This is all just waffle, metalgod, as you have already said you it isn't the risk of infection that concerns you. So please, for the love of chuff, tell us what the deal is.
Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:46 pm
WWW
MetalgodBannedUser avatarPosts: 196Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Frenger wrote:This is all just waffle, metalgod, as you have already said you it isn't the risk of infection that concerns you. So please, for the love of chuff, tell us what the deal is.


Do you see, Inferno, how when you require an answer to an impossible hypothetical, it can lead to confusion?
Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:09 pm
InfernoContributorUser avatarPosts: 2298Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:36 pmLocation: Vienna, Austria Gender: Cake

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Metalgod wrote:Do you see, Inferno, how when you require an answer to an impossible hypothetical, it can lead to confusion?


I may be mistaken but I think Frenger's talking about... well, everything you've said until now, not just your post-hypothetical posts.

Metalgod wrote:Black americans are not identified by their sexual behavior.


I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me, but for clarity I'll try to rephrase my point:
Increased HIV/AIDS incidence in homosexual males is not due to any intrinsic danger inherent in their practices.
Increased HIV/AIDS incidence in African-American people is also not due to any intrinsic danger inherent in their practice.

Rather, the increased HIV/AIDS incidence is mostly due to economy (in African-Americans), education (in both groups) and persecution due to behaviour. (in homosexuals)

If you were truly concerned about the well-being of homosexual people, you would advocate widespread sex education. Incidentally, which are the states with the highest rates of teenage pregnancy? The religious states advocating "abstinence only". Which are the ones with the lowest rates? The least religious with excellent sex-ed programs.
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed." ― Friedrich Nietzsche

"I shall achieve my objectives through the power... of Science!" --LessWrong
Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:28 pm
MetalgodBannedUser avatarPosts: 196Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

australopithecus wrote:
Metalgod wrote:Do you think its wrong? Do you think they're bigots?


Dreaming that your son settles down and marries a nice girl is not the same thing as dreaming your son won't marry another guy.

No, it's not wrong. Yes, it is irrelevant. Dreaming that your son marries a nice girl is fine


Really?
Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:25 am
MetalgodBannedUser avatarPosts: 196Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

I am satisfied to leave my arguements to stand on that note. I dont feel that any reasonable arguement has been presented to me.

Maybe it would be of interest of someone here to engage in a formal debate on whether or not all homosexuals were born that way.
Last edited by Metalgod on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:49 am
Dragan GlasContributorUser avatarPosts: 3209Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 1:55 amLocation: Ireland Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Greetings,

Metalgod wrote:
Dragan Glas wrote:The PLOS study was submitted in 2012.

The "over 60%" statistic, which relates solely to Africa, is still relevant as it refers to figures from 2011:

[...]

You seem to think that by posting lots of statistics you prove the accuracy of the testing methods involved. At first I thought this was a simple error on your part but you keep doing it.

Please re-read my post on how microbes found in unclean drinking water cause false positives for HIV. Then read the entire wiki you linked to above. Pay special attention to "The World Health Organization states that about 2.5 percent of HIV infections in Sub-Saharan Africa are caused by unsafe medical injection practices" Spend a bit of free time learning about HIV testing in general and how AIDS is diagnosed in the US and in Africa and then come back and tell me where it is we will find the most reliable statistics we have on HIV/AIDS. In the US or in Sub-Sahara Africa?

Metalgod, your "microbes" linked article dates to the mid-nineties, as I already pointed out.

Further, the WHO's article dates to 2003 - and please note the full quote:

A minority of scientists claim that as many as 40 percent of HIV infections in African adults may be caused by unsafe medical practices rather than by sexual activity.[44] The World Health Organization states that about 2.5 percent of HIV infections in Sub-Saharan Africa are caused by unsafe medical injection practices and the "overwhelming majority" by unprotected sex.[45]

44 ^ Africa: HIV/AIDS through Unsafe Medical Care. Africaaction.org. Retrieved on 2010-10-25.*
45 ^ WHO | Expert group stresses that unsafe sex is primary mode of transmission of HIV in Africa. Who.int (2003-03-14). Retrieved on 2010-10-25.

* Note that the Wiki link is no longer valid - however, I've located the report to which it links and substituted the live link.

The 44 article dates to 2002.

Further, the very next section clarifies the point I'm making about the fact that it's not due to homosexuality:

Regional prevalence

In contrast to the predominantly Muslim areas in North Africa and the Horn of Africa, traditional cultures and religions in much of Sub-Saharan Africa have generally exhibited a more liberal attitude vis-a-vis female out-of-marriage sexual activity. The latter includes practices such as multiple sexual partners and unprotected sex, high-risk cultural patterns that have been implicated in the much greater spread of HIV in the subcontinent.[5]

North Africa

The HIV prevalence rates in North Africa are among the lowest in the world. This is primarily attributed to the salient role of Islam in the region's societies, which has kept infection rates at a negligible level through the faith's strong influence on local mores, values, and government policies. Extra-marital sexual relations are also fervently discouraged in the area's predominantly Muslim communities.[5]

Uniquely among countries in this region, Morocco's HIV prevalence rate has increased from less than 0.1 percent in 2001 to 0.2 percent in 2011.[3]

I searched further regarding the 44 article and found the following 2002 article - The Missing Link? “The Spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa through Unsafe Medical Care".:

In making their case, the authors made the very important observation that “Studies of sexual behavior do not show as much partner change in Africa as modelers have assumed, nor do they show differences in heterosexual behavior between Africa and Europe that could explain major differences in epidemic growth. “ In fact studies had found rates of partner change in Europe were up to 10 times higher than in equivalent African populations.

One of the more controversial and acrimonious areas of debate, from the beginning of the HIV/AIDS epidemic has been around sexual behaviour in Africa. Many Africans resented the implication of being sexually rampant without care. But despite there not being much scientific evidence to support this view it is now commonly accepted that the high rates of sexual partner change in Africa were one of the main reasons for the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS. Many Africans would beg to differ.

But if Africans are not having anymore sex that anyone else in the world, why is HIV/AIDS spreading so fast. And what would this mean for all the prevention programmes that are based on behaviour change in sexual patterns has been one of the main weapons in preventing HIV/AIDS. How will one know if their efforts are working? There have been few if any baseline studies on behaviour in Africa (a significant oversight in my opinion) which means that we have no way of knowing the true impact of prevention programmes.

The implications of this finding if true are enormous. It will have a considerable impact on the way the HIV/AIDS epidemic is being tackled in the future and I commend the authors for highlighting this very important point.

I like many other scientists have long wondered what could explain the rapid and aggressive spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa other than sexual transmission. I have always had a nagging suspicion that there was something not being considered, but did not have the ability to put any hypotheses to the test.

However recently I have come to the conclusion that two other factors need to be considered in the spread oh HIV/AIDS:

1. Health systems (or lack of) are a possible significant factor in the transmission of HIV.

2. The other factor is of course Conflict which was a significant factor in spreading AIDS in Uganda and Ethiopia.

The two are deadly combination. Conflict leads to the disruption and breakdown of health systems, and of course injuries, disease, refugees, immunization campaigns etc. One can of course see how such conditions where with lack of health services, with few health personnel and the pressure to ensure disease outbreaks do not occur, the need to treat wounded or sick people less than perfect sterilization techniques may be used. And the re-use of needles and syringes is a very common affair throughout Africa.

The evidence of the relation between countries / regions that have experienced conflict and then subsequently seen huge increases in HIV infections a decade later is quite compelling. In this regard the news that is coming out of West Africa, where civil war has raged in Sierra Leone, Liberia and more recently in Ivory Coast is quite disturbing. It is now thought that Nigeria will be the next epicenter of a massive increase in HIV/AIDS infections.
As one respondent to Afronets asked “Why has this very obvious possibility been so little examined till now? Especially since infection control has so long been known as a difficulty in resource-limited settings, primarily because health workers lack protective supplies like gloves, face masks, and sterilizing equipment? Especially since the possibility of transmission in medical settings has been recognized and guarded against in the wealthier countries since the early 1980s?”

For a doctor it is uncomfortable feeling to consider that in attempting to help save lives and alleviate suffering you could be contributing to the problem. But this is a possibility that must be faced. There is need for more large well funded comprehensive studies in looking at risks for HIV transmission through health care in Africa.

I assume your reference to the WHOs "2.5% ... HIV ... caused by unsafe medical injection practices" means you disagree with their figure?

Having searched further for various references to unsafe medical practices being the cause, I found the following article (submitted Feb 2009) - Injection drug use, unsafe medical injections, and HIV in Africa: a systematic review:

Conclusion

Injection drug use has increased rapidly during the recent past throughout sub-Saharan Africa, with the greatest increase in Mauritius, and the greatest numbers of IDU in West-Central Africa. Projecting a similar rate of increase through the year 2015, IDU prevalence could reach 0.24% in Southern Africa, 0.08% in East Africa, and 0.19% in West-Central Africa. For comparison, in the U.S. the prevalence of heroin use (primarily administered by injecting) has stabilized at around 0.2%,78,33 and the prevalence of methamphetamine injecting has risen to 0.3% of adults under 50 [33,78,79]. Although IDU prevalence is greatest and expanding most quickly in major drug transshipment countries, habitual injecting has penetrated far beyond the periphery of major ports and airports, observed even among refugees from the interior of the Democratic Republic of Congo.

HIV prevalence among IDU can also be expected to increase, as the scant drug treatment and harm reduction activities in sub-Saharan Africa are unlikely to impact upward trends that have been documented in Nigeria and South Africa. Interventions to raise awareness of the HIV transmission risk from sharing needles are needed, particularly in Nigeria. Outreach (1) to out-of-school youth as well as students, (2) to female sex workers' clients as well as at-risk women, and (3) to unemployed adults and the homeless, as well as IDU who can afford residential treatment, will be needed. Support for harm reduction spending may hinge on recognition that concentrated HIV epidemics among IDU are relevant to the spread of HIV among sexually active young adults in Africa's generalized epidemics.

For the protection of patients, accurate information that HIV can survive outside the body in blood-contaminated instruments and on sharps must be taught, and suspected iatrogenic HIV cases should be traced through the implicated clinics and investigated to identify and prevent other cases. These efforts will in no way detract from the message that HIV is sexually transmitted, even if it is evident that sexual transmission explains less than 90% of infections in Africa. Public awareness of HIV transmission risk from other prevalent skin-piercing procedures (such as tattooing, shaving with an unsterilized razor, or unsterile dental care) is also poor in Africa, and should be addressed simultaneously [46,80,81]. Introducing this information and supporting effective infection control in primary health care could significantly reduce HIV transmission in Africa.

No real contribution from unsafe medical practices - over sexual transmission - due to increased safer practices in recent years.

All of this still does not answer how you calculated the "15/10 times" figures for US homosexuals with HIV versus African males.

Kindest regards,

James
Image
"The Word of God is the Creation we behold and it is in this Word, which no human invention can counterfeit or alter, that God speaketh universally to man."
The Age Of Reason
Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:51 am
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Inferno wrote:
Metalgod wrote:Do you see, Inferno, how when you require an answer to an impossible hypothetical, it can lead to confusion?


I may be mistaken but I think Frenger's talking about... well, everything you've said until now, not just your post-hypothetical posts.


Nope, that's exactly right Inferno.
Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:19 am
WWW
FrengerBloggerUser avatarPosts: 831Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:50 pmLocation: Derby, UK Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Metalgod wrote:

Maybe it would be of interest of someone here to engage in a formal debate on whether or not all homosexuals were born that way.


Yep, I'm game for this.
Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:21 am
WWW
DustniteUser avatarPosts: 531Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 9:11 pm Gender: Cake

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Metalgod wrote:I am satisfied to leave my arguements to stand on that note. I dont feel that any reasonable arguement has been presented to me.

Maybe it would be of interest of someone here to engage in a formal debate on whether or not all homosexuals were born that way.


"I can't logically defend my position of bigotry, so I'm going to take my ball and go home," -Trolololololol

"But this is irrelevant because in either case, whether a god exists or not, whether your God (with a capital G) exists or not, it doesn't matter. We both are, in either case, evolved apes. " - Nesslig20
Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:07 am
NemesiahPosts: 429Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 8:00 amLocation: Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

I may be getting this wrong but, as I understand it Metalgod oposes "the gay sex" because (he says) it is physically dangerous (beacause of the AIDS).

First: Is lesbian sex dangerous? Is he opposed to it?

Second: Is heterosexual anal penetration also dangerous? Is he opposed to it?

Third: If Metalgod oposes gay sex because it is dangerous, does he also opose other dangerous activities like, say, smoking? Cholesterol kills a ton of people a year, does he opose eating bacon? so does driving does Metalgod opose driving?
Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:28 pm
he_who_is_nobodyBloggerUser avatarPosts: 3491Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 1:36 amLocation: Albuquerque, New Mexico Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Metalgod wrote:Maybe it would be of interest of someone here to engage in a formal debate on whether or not all homosexuals were born that way.


What would be the point of this? Even if you were able to show that every gay person on earth chose to be gay, that would mean what exactly? What would you accomplish by this?
_BONES AND FOSSILS = LOVE_
(_'--------------------'_)
(_.--------------------._)
Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:02 pm
YIM WWW
WarKChat ModeratorUser avatarPosts: 1224Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:59 am Gender: Tree

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

he_who_is_nobody wrote:
Metalgod wrote:Maybe it would be of interest of someone here to engage in a formal debate on whether or not all homosexuals were born that way.


What would be the point of this? Even if you were able to show that every gay person on earth chose to be gay, that would mean what exactly? What would you accomplish by this?


Isn't it that only a bisexual person would think that homosexuality is a choice?
Did you see that ludicrous display last night?
Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:09 pm
VivreUser avatarPosts: 351Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:05 pmLocation: dungeon of despair Gender: Female

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

IBSpify wrote:Somewhat on topic, Today the SCOTUS rules that the Defense of Marriage act was unconstitutional, and also struck down California's proposition 8 which banned same-sex marriage (ruling was based on standing, so the ruling only affects California).

So hooray for 1.5 victories for equality!

Thanks IBSpify ~ I'd like to hand in and add:

TheMessianicManic - vid: The Prop 8 Ruling + pdf: The full text of the decision

Obama praises Supreme Court’s gay marriage rulings ___ wrote:“This ruling is a victory
for couples who have long fought for equal treatment under the law;
for children whose parents’ marriages will now be recognized, rightly, as legitimate;
for families that, at long last, will get the respect and protection they deserve;
and for friends and supporters who have wanted nothing more than to see their loved ones treated fairly and have worked hard to persuade their nation to change for the better,”

Obama’s call for tolerance of gays gets cold shoulder in Africa

Statement by the President on the Supreme Court Ruling on the Defense of Marriage Act
Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:32 pm
WWW
MetalgodBannedUser avatarPosts: 196Joined: Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:13 am Gender: Male

Post Re: Gay marriage in minesota

Frenger wrote:
Metalgod wrote:

Maybe it would be of interest of someone here to engage in a formal debate on whether or not all homosexuals were born that way.


Yep, I'm game for this.


Nevermind, Im too depressed to debate anymore. Sorry, Frenger.
Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:25 pm
Previous
Post new topic Reply to topic  Page 14 of 14
 [ 277 posts ] 
Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests